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phansford
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csintexas
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 Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:29 am Post subject: |
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thanks, that's a good find.
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SDR
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks so much; as a big fan I'm going to go look. Your photo of the Gamble house is an unusual one. Walking up that herringbone brick drive is an unforgettable experience. The day I was there, a 'forties wood-sided station wagon was parked at the front steps.
The Greene and Greene elevations are among the loveliest of architectural drawings; delicious if straightforward linework of some of the most handsome wood buildings ever designed, with rich period-characteristic lettering and unique details such as boulder or clinker-brick bases, depicted in appropriate random fashion. Now let's see what those early sketches look like.
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phansford
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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SDR - I immediately thought of you when I stumbled onto the archive. I spent over an hour looking through the drawings yesterday and didn't get past the "c"s  |
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SDR
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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I'm in need of guidance; which of the four resources is the one to pursue, and what is the best route ? (Even with my new computer, I'm still an amateur, I guess.) Thanks for the tip.
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SDR
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Ah -- I got it. I went right past the obvious. Thanks ! |
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csintexas
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:55 am Post subject: |
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One thing my book: Greene & Greene Masterworks did not convey is how random elements where placed (from the exterior view) It appears that they actually avoided symmetry.
I have to wonder if all that impressive detailing where stripped from them and they where built today they would be considered McMansions or symptomatic of what is wrong with the home building industry.
It seems to me "good architecture" is almost always associated with cost per foot and not the underlying nature of the design.
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Chris,
The Greene Brothers were very much interested in the hand-crafted detail. That was the whole point of Arts & Craft movement. It is about the quality of craftsmanship and materials. To strip the buildings of detail would be counter to the entire philosophy of the movement..... it would be nothing more than the stuff of hack builders.
There is also a relationship to the landscape design. Maybe SDR can comment more since he has actually been to these buildings.
Their work is asysmetrically to convey the romantic nature of the style. I did find a "Colonial House" in the archive and it is very rational (symetrical). So they knew how to work in other styles, but it is the arts and crafts work that made them famous. But remember, Frank Lloyd Wright did a few colonials/queen annes before he found his voice.
Cost does not define whether a building is architecture, however, it does not hurt. Low and Moderate income housing has been a focus for the Modern architect for some time. Wright developed several lost-cost proto-types during his Oak Park days and later developed the Unisonian. LeCorbusier did his work at Pessac, France and of course there was the Weissenhof exhibition in Stuttgart.
The biggest problem with McMansions today is the lack of discipline and actually architectural knowledge of most of the designers engaged in that sector of the market. They are typically not educated nor well-read. Most might own a picture book or two, but would have not understanding of the relationship that American Arts and Crafts had with other similar movements in Europe such as the English Arts and Crafts (William Morris), Secessionists (Otto Wagner or Hoffman), Art Noveau (Guimard and Horta), the Werkbund (Peter Behrens and Olbrich). A personal favorite of mine is Mackintosh from Scotland. |
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csintexas
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:22 am Post subject: |
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Yes we all know it was about craftsmanship, that is why it is called Arts and Crafts. 
The George H. Barker House was colonial classical but they over sized the window headers in a more art deco way. If this was done today by a designer on an inexpensive house it would be considered ignorance.
Wright's Usonian houses where never low or even moderate cost 
I didn't say cost defines a building as architecture I said it defines it as "good architecture".
Well if you took all the detail off of a G&G house certainly it would not be an Arts & Crafts house any more but the underlying form would still be the same. My point is the only difference is the amount of money spent on it. The former a architectural treasure the latter a joke.
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SDR
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: |
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The first Usonian cost its owner $5,500 and change, in 1936. Never say "never." You're right that most later ones went much higher; Wright's hopes od economy were confounded by his insistence on detail that required careful craftsmanship. His removal from the ordinary realities of construction is revealed by his intention to have these designs built largely in the shop, and/or to construct the roof first and use the space below to build and erect the walls !
I can't find the reference, but I seem to recall a figure of $75,000 for the Gamble house, in 1909 -- when 6-room bungalows were being built for 2-3 k. Of course, the Gamble house is far more than a decorated box. . .
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 900
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| csintexas wrote: | | The George H. Barker House was colonial classical but they over sized the window headers in a more art deco way. If this was done today by a designer on an inexpensive house it would be considered ignorance. |
Hopefully you understand the difference. One is altering the rule to reflect the current trend, while another does understand the rule. However, on the Barker house, I think this issue is about scale not Art Deco detailing, since the Art Deco movement is nearly 3 decade after this house.
| csintexas wrote: | | Wright's Usonian houses where never low or even moderate cost |
I would disagree. The intent of the Usonian house was to provide an architecturally designed house for the masses. Look at Jacobs I and Rosenbaum. These are smaller houses than FLLW typically designed. The intent was to get the cost to about $5,000, which Mr. Wright did accomplish.
Also, one idea behind the Usonian was to develop a method of masonry construction for people to construct their own homes. Read FLLW's The Natural House.
| csintexas wrote: | | I didn't say cost defines a building as architecture I said it defines it as "good architecture". |
The examples I showed are low cost housing solutions that are considered high water marks in residential architecture. So again, cost does not define "good architecture". You can use low-cost, off-the-shelf items and make "good architecture." Corbu's work at Pessac is considered some of the best early Modern low-cost housing, while at the same time he is design such luxury houses as Villa Savoye and Villa Garches
| csintexas wrote: | | Well if you took all the detail off of a G&G house certainly it would not be an Arts & Crafts house any more but the underlying form would still be the same. My point is the only difference is the amount of money spent on it. The former a architectural treasure the latter a joke. |
I agree, to a point, but I am not sure what you are getting at. There are arts and crafts houses with less detail (and cost less). The use of materials , forms, proportions, and so on are also part of the style. There are wonderful arts and crafts bunglows all over america that are great houses. Maybe its better to say that the Gamble House is the finest example, which raises it above its more common brethren - the bunglow?
BTW - Glad to see I am not the only one working today |
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csintexas
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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I could be wrong but I think that $5500 was more than the average in 1936 and I would guess it was based on the owners doing much of the work themselves.
I like G&G, they are one of my favorites. I was just thinking they might better be considered as decorators rather than architects. Also I just find it very interesting that our perception of what good architecture is has so much more to do with the level of detail than the basic form or function.
Based on what I see in that archive I would guess that it would be possible to transform the ugliest McMansion you could find into good architecture simply by applying G&G details to it. If that is the case what would that say about architecture?
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| csintexas wrote: | .......... I just find it very interesting that our perception of what good architecture is has so much more to do with the level of detail than the basic form or function.
Based on what I see in that archive I would guess that it would be possible to transform the ugliest McMansion you could find into good architecture simply by applying G&G details to it. If that is the case what would that say about architecture? |
Ugh...... No form and function are important. That is the whole point of Modern Architecture. Again, look at Corbu's work and Neutra, and Wright, and Koening, and ......
The detail is not APPLIED to the Greene and Greene houses. It is intrinsic to the structure. The Structural detail is expressed. You can't remove the detail as if where glued onto the house..... like all the crap being built today. That is the FREAKING point.
You might do well to read some Louis Sullivan and take a look at Adolf Loos. |
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csintexas
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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Art Deco may be officially defined between certain years but G&G has a definite Art Deco feel in my opinion. A style does not actually "pop" into existence in an instance. What is the difference between someone who knows but does what they want to do anyway and someone who doesn't know and does what they want to anyway? The end result is the same. G&G's work was also reflecting the current trend.
I actually own a copy of the Natural House and have read it twice -though that does not necessarily mean I learned anything.
I should have said either expensive or radically unusual.
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csintexas
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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I think you are misinterpreting my use of the word apply.
You take it as meaning "glued on" I mean it as in applying the same building techniques.
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